Can you tell us about your career path?

I've always wanted to serve the public interest. After Sciences Po Paris, I took a Master 2 in public management at Paris Dauphine, then passed the competitive examination for hospital director. During my first hospital internship at APHP's Hôpital Saint-Louis, I discovered hematology and oncology, two very demanding medical disciplines. I got to know professionals of the highest human quality, including doctors, paramedics and administrative staff.

Even back then, I was struck by the richness of this mix of profiles. Indeed, the particularity of cancer research centers (CLCCs) is that they don't operate in silos, but in synergy. I started out as Director of Finance at Gustave Roussy, then worked as Deputy General Manager at the Léon Bérard center in Lyon for 6 years. A year ago, I accepted the position of Managing Director of UNICANCER to cultivate the ability to work together that is fostered by our centers' organizational model.

UNICANCER federates 18 cancer centers. It is also a health cooperation group. We share purchasing, an HR information system (payroll IS, data feedback on absenteeism, remuneration levels by profession, etc.) and research programs for 20 establishments*. As a professional branch, we represent 22,000 employees and negotiate with social partners.

* Institut Sainte-Catherine Avignon Provence and Institut Polynésien de Cancérologie.

What milestones or people have helped you along the way?

In a career, it's not so much the milestones that count as the encounters; those that create desires, open up pathways or provide the opportunity to prove oneself. CLCC governance is based on a highly complementary pairing of a general manager who is a research physician and a deputy general manager with a hospital director's profile. This is the international model for public hospitals.

The doctor has legitimacy at the head of the establishment. He drives the scientific and medical vision and works closely with the CEO, who is in charge of human resources, finance, communications... and overall, of implementing a strategic vision. Through my experience, I've been able to observe how each of us is enriched by understanding the other's job, constraints and aspirations.

"At a time when we are debating the governance of healthcare establishments, cancer centers are demonstrating that it is possible to operate with simple, short hierarchical circuits, clear responsibilities and autonomous medical departments."

UNICANCER aims to promote this highly integrated model, which is particularly well-suited to oncology in terms of coordinated patient care and multidisciplinary consultation. The members of the management teams do not all come from the same profession. They come from a variety of backgrounds: public, private and sometimes corporate.

"This diversity of profiles, whether through internal promotion or by bringing a fresh perspective, is a factor of collective intelligence, even in crisis situations. We must encourage this plurality.

What are the levers of transmission to future positive-impact leaders?

Issues of transmission need to be prepared in advance. At UNICANCER, we are developing an executive training program open to department heads and senior physicians, with the first class of around ten students due to start in 2023. This high-level managerial training is designed to give them the keys to the healthcare system, with a particular focus on management and communication.

"Our ambition is to create a community of future GMs who are aware of the challenges of this position, which is so different from that of a doctor, so as to better anticipate retirements."

Developing large-scale medical projects requires the cultivation of many different facets: medical and scientific skills, of course, but also human and relational qualities. Indeed, a center director needs to be recognized by the social partners, the ARS, the chairman of the board of directors, UNICANCER... In a world as complex as a healthcare establishment, soft skills are indispensable.

How can we support future managers to build loyalty and help them grow?

Human resources are the No. 1 issue for our establishments. Although we offer a fairly flexible working environment, allowing for research, clinical work or time off, CLCCs are faced with the same attractiveness issues as public hospitals. Against this backdrop, directors are telling us how difficult it is to understand the expectations of new generations. With this in mind, UNICANCER is launching a sociological study at university level to analyze this multiplicity of professional expectations, because our challenge is to retain them in our structures.

CLCCs offer a wealth of opportunities and a clear sense of purpose. If you're looking to move into a management role, you can benefit from internal promotion and Executive MBA-type training. It's impossible to get bored, as the world of healthcare and healthcare facilities is constantly evolving, with both scientific and organizational advances.

"Joining our sector means taking part in very concrete social transformations, such as inventing care for tomorrow's patients and caregivers. The prospect of changing their daily lives is exciting and very rewarding."

Can you tell us about your career path?

When ANAES, the forerunner of HAS, was set up, I was one of the first groups of visiting experts. Later, Prof. Yves Matillon and Chantal Lachenaye, heads of accreditation for healthcare establishments, asked me to join them. Together, we brought Quality into healthcare establishments.

While I was looking at the medical-social field from a distance, ASEI came looking for me. I guessed that I would finally be able to combine the strategic: structuring, and the operational: projects. I never thought I'd stay this long. In a way, I was able to move internally, developing the association in Hendaye, in the Nouvelle-Aquitaine region and even in Paris.

What milestones or people have helped you along the way?

There are, of course, things to learn technically, but a lot to learn by observing. It's all a form of apprenticeship, a patina that forms over time.

"I've learned a lot from contact with people in the sector by listening to them, watching, exchanging, sometimes challenging."

In this respect, I feel that training should take greater account of the reality of the business. On the one hand, you need a solid grounding in management and knowledge of the sector and its subtleties. On the other, "humanities" play a major role. A director is called "general" precisely because of his or her general approach. You don't have to be good at everything. In accounting and HR, for example, I've relied on some very good people. What is important, however, is to see the context and impact of your decisions, and to keep an open mind.

"In this business, you have to accept the loneliness of being a manager, but at the same time not boil over in the pot and extract yourself from it. It's very important to have colleagues you can trust and people with whom you can talk to regenerate yourself. In this respect, belonging to a federation is very useful.

You're retiring. How have you prepared for your succession?

Once I've received a lot, I've tried to pass it on in return. I usually decline offers of training, because I feel that teaching is a profession, but I'm happy to share my experience. Above all, I believe that transmission is best done in the field.

I'm only the^4th General Manager of ASEI in 70 years. That's a pretty long lifespan, which can be dangerous for an organization. As the division of roles is very clear between the President and myself, we anticipated my departure together. At the end of December, the Board opted for the continuity of the associative project in the person of Olivia Lévrier, previously director of an entity and of care transformation. She was appointed Deputy General Manager and, since January, we've been preparing the handover. She's been working with me on a number of cross-functional projects, such as investment policy, the information-sharing and digital plan, and staff representative elections. Little by little, she is taking over the association. Not that I have a taste for the last few times, but I've noticed that things are going very well with the teams.

What are the levers of transmission to future positive-impact leaders?

In the past, organizations used to put people in boxes, according to an organizational chart that confused hierarchy and function, which in my opinion is a mistake.

"I've always fought for and against organization. You need organization, but you can't freeze it. You can't lock people in."

My ambition is for the associative project to unfold through the commitment and quality of our professionals, in particular through the development of their power to act, by supporting and helping them to realize their aspirations and potential to the full. I think I've succeeded in promoting this within ASEI by setting up geographical basins and decentralized delegations. This has the advantage of giving employees who want autonomy more responsibility, but also of testing them. In this respect, I've been surprised in both directions. Sometimes, the suit turns out to be too big and, on the other hand, on other occasions, employees blossom.

We also support managers when they encounter difficulties. At ASEI, I introduced the Enneagram technique, based on neuroscience, which consists in defining one's relational base and how each person moves and behaves socially. There are several profiles: the perfectionist, the epicurean, the boss... This technique has enabled some managers to reveal themselves and understand why certain things work or don't work.

Good recruitment is about two desires coming together, even if there can be disappointments, of course. I've often recruited potential and I'm attracted by atypical profiles. Not that I'm necessarily looking to break away from a particular model. However, I am convinced that a dose of openness is important. At ASEI, we recruit educators who have risen through the ranks, CAFDES graduates and profiles from all other sectors.

"Today's high potentials have convictions and demands. So much so that, during interviews, I wonder who's recruiting who. I salute their convictions, but I invite them to cultivate their ability to listen and be open to others.